There's only 1 full-frame camera on 2024's mirrorless top 10 sales list. Is full frame overhyped… or are we all just broke?

[Wilt]

Thanks for this! Years ago I had gone through some of the math & geometry in my head about what made sense, but since it was a while ago...I might have remembered it incorrectly. I'm gonna bookmark that link.

At @WestCoastBirder suggestion, that same link is now embedded within an updated Resource on FOP, with title Out-of-Focus Blur 2023-11-22
Most folks have no comprehension about there being computation and control of Out of Focus, that is complementary to Depth of Field (what is In Focus)...control is via the Aperture Diameter (not f-number)

(APS-C) 60mm FL / 2 = 30mm aperture​

(FF) 100mm FL / 3.33 = 30mm aperture​

​

so 'same Out-of-focus' blur characteristic in shots with those combinations of different format size, where camera positions are identical for identical framing

 

[shinksma]

At @WestCoastBirder suggestion, that same link is now embedded within an updated Resource on FOP, with title Out-of-Focus Blur 2023-11-22

Awesome!

Getting back to the original post topic:

We picked up the R7 model because it most closely resembled the T3i/T2i we had been using in terms of FoV expectations, handheld size about the same, compatibility with a good selection of EF-S lenses in our collection, and the significantly (to us) increased MP count compared to what we had.

I do remember looking at the other FF models in case there was a compelling argument to go that way instead. And I just refreshed my thoughts by re-looking at the Canon FF models available, thinking there is always the opportunity to grab a FF model in a year or two.

So my issue remains with the FF models being all significantly pricier than the R7 (and especially R10) - only the R8 is in the same range. The FF model I think I would want is the R5mkII, because it has all the leaps and bounds of tech improvements that interest me. The R8 has no IBIS and is relatively low in MP count. But the R5II is a whole lot more $$.

So maybe I'll wait for the R5mkIII to get released, dropping the used prices of the R5mkII. That's what I did when I grabbed a 5DmkII.

But yeah, for the mass market, the FF bodies are just too spendy for the casual consumer.

Oh, and a useless single anecdote: a co-worker bought a new camera for his wife for Christmas (knowing he'll get to play with it too, of course ). He picked the R10 because it fit the budget and had all the right features (for them/him).

 

[tony-s]

A few years after selling my 5Dii I picked up a used Sony A7i for use with my FD lenses and it does a great job. Despite its weird layout the manual focus zebra works well enough. I only wish it had IBIS. Maybe the A7iii is in my future.

 

[Wilt]

About the popularity of APS-C in Japan vs. the scarcity of FF in Japan for 2024 camera sales...
Consider the fact that the median family income in Japan in 2024 was a bit over $23K, which is less than 1/4 of the median family income in USA ($99k)...they simply cannot afford to buy FF, so they buy the more affordable cameras (APS-C and 4/3 format)

 

[ShipleyNW]

I was a pretty serious fly fisherman for some 30 years, and I thought that was an expensive hobby. I owned several top-of-the-line $500 fly rods and I knew how to use them. But when I retired from work, I had to retire from fly fishing. Too old to walk on slippery river rocks anymore, and that's the way I did fly fishing. Had to find a new hobby.

In my 20s I was a newspaper photographer. Went to college for that. So I figured I'd see if I could still work a camera. Holy moly this stuff is pricy. In fly fishing, $500 would buy me a Sage Z-Axis, and I'd think a long time before pulling that trigger. In photography, $500 won't even buy me a decent kit lens.

So I started out with crop bodies. They were less than half, sometimes significantly less than half the price of FF models. Pretty soon though, I was acclimating to the expense and curious about FF. Long story short, I now own two R5s. I've always kept a crop body. I'm an old sports photographer and I love big glass. I had a 400/5.6, and on a 90D or an R7, it feels like a 640/5.6. Damn.

I love my R5s, maybe even more than I loved my 5Div. There's nothing I know how to do that they can't handle. It's never the camera's fault. If I do something the camera can't handle, I had no business trying that shot, that way, in the first place. Even if I do throw it hard stuff, it catches way more than I have a right to expect. FF cameras make great raw files. You can fix a lot of bad situations with on a great raw file. I count on it. And that's what you're paying for: Confidence. Out in the field, I don't think about the camera. It'll do its job.

I mentioned that I've always kept a crop body for reach, and I own an R7 now. I took that to Spring Training in Arizona last year with an EF-S 15-85 and an RF 70-200/4. That trip was a revelation. The kit did everything I asked. It worked fine on some tough shots. Since then, I've been taking it out more to places where I'd rather not take big cameras and big lenses. I've gained some confidence in that kit, so much so that I just got an R10.

I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking that I could work anything with these little cameras. I'm not leaving much on the table by leaving the FF bodies at home. I do wish someone would make a good RF version of that EF-S 15-85. I've got to have an APS-C version of a 24-105, or thereabouts. That's the lens I use the most on my FF bodies.

 

[West Coast Birder]

Canon really needs to focus on its RF-S line of lenses.

 

[Joeseph]

Canon really needs to focus on its RF-S line of lenses.

no... they need to focus on making the RF lenses cheaper!

 

[Archibald]

no... they need to focus on making the RF lenses cheaper!

Why? These expensive items are selling very well for them.

 

[West Coast Birder]

Why? These expensive items are selling very well for them.

Oh sure! I’m just speaking as a consumer!

 

[Mike_d]

About the popularity of APS-C in Japan vs. the scarcity of FF in Japan for 2024 camera sales...
Consider the fact that the median family income in Japan in 2024 was a bit over $23K, which is less than 1/4 of the median family income in USA ($99k)...they simply cannot afford to buy FF, so they buy the more affordable cameras (APS-C and 4/3 format)

There has to be more to that number. I can't believe Japan is as poor as that suggests.

 

[Wilt]

There has to be more to that number. I can't believe Japan is as poor as that suggests.

I just checked a different source, and Google AI says, "In 2024, the median salary in Japan is estimated to be around 472,000 Japanese yen (JPY), or about $3,031 USD.", which is 36% of US (per Google AI).
And World Population Review says, "Japan Median income 2020 $17095" which I assume is a per capita figure (US median income $25332), so Japan is 67% of US

Median Income by Country 2025

Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.

worldpopulationreview.com

 

[Lester Wareham]

The only "EF" lenses I kept were that EF-S 10-22 and an EF-S 15-85. If I don't have a bird lens on my 7D, it usually has that 15-85. I just bought an R10, and that's the only lens it's ever seen. I liked the lens better when it was short and stubby on a 90D. It's less of that with an adapter. I'm hoping we'll see a native RF version of that lens, but I'm not holding my breath.

It doesn't surprise me that an overall top seller list would be made of less-expensive gear. Those bodies are aimed the Best Buy customer. There are way more of them than people willing to spend $5-10k on a kit.

My bad, I kept the 18-55 too (20D kit lens) not so fab but ok on my 7D IR conversion.

The supposed APS-C size advantage was not significant IMHO.

The APS-C gear does a reasonable job and is a bit cheaper, so of course the average person is going for it over FF.

 

[SkedAddled]

I'm old-skool and like what the 5DIV gives me, so I'll keep with it.

I get more range with something like a Tamron SP 28-80 on the 5D than my previous
XTi/40D/50D could achieve, and the detail and other dynamics of the captured image
simply aren't of the same quality that the 5D offers.

I prefer to pair the vintage lenses with a modern capture device, so it makes no sense
for me to couple those lenses with a camera which is incapable of capturing
what those lenses were made for.

I also cannot afford to chase the latest-and-greatest of the market,
so it makes good fiscal sense for me to stay with the 5D.

In summary: I have an exceedingly-good capture device in the 5D Mk IV,
I have a few exceedingly-good vintage lenses, and they all serve me quite well
in capturing images which please myself and, in some cases, others.
I'd say I'm fairly well ahead of the game already.

I do understand chasing after the technology, but I had to just call it quits
after a time. I've probably plateaued.

 

[ShipleyNW]

I'm old-skool and like what the 5DIV gives me, so I'll keep with it.

The 5Div is a great camera. The R5 kinda shifted the game. I chased that and I'm happy with it, but the 5Div was the apex of the do-it-all DSLR. If I hadn't spent ALL MY MONEY going mirrorless, I'd be fine with a couple of 5Div bodies and some cheap used EF lenses.

 

[West Coast Birder]

The 5Div is a great camera. The R5 kinda shifted the game. I chased that and I'm happy with it, but the 5Div was the apex of the do-it-all DSLR. If I hadn't spent ALL MY MONEY going mirrorless, I'd be fine with a couple of 5Div bodies and some cheap used EF lenses.

I still have my 5D4 and will keep it as long as I keep my EF lenses (which is likely a long time). Recently, I took it for a spin photographing buildings in Pasadena and the images put a smile on my face. Awesome camera. You’re right - if that was the last camera I owned, I would be more than happy.

 

[paddler4]

The 5D IV is truly superb, IMHO. I shot with one for years. I switched to an R6 II because for the specific things I shoot, it has a few advantages. I do candids of kids, and the AF tracking is far better. And I do a lot of focus stacking, and I find the camera's stacking much easier than doing it manually. (I don't let the camera make the composite. I just let it take the stack automatically.) But many people don't need those features. If I weren't doing that kind of shooting, I probably would have stuck with the 5D IV, which I really loved using. In my view, it's a tool, so use whichever gets the job done.

 

[Capn Jack]

I just checked a different source, and Google AI says, "In 2024, the median salary in Japan is estimated to be around 472,000 Japanese yen (JPY), or about $3,031 USD.", which is 36% of US (per Google AI).
And World Population Review says, "Japan Median income 2020 $17095" which I assume is a per capita figure (US median income $25332), so Japan is 67% of US

Median Income by Country 2025

Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.

worldpopulationreview.com

About the popularity of APS-C in Japan vs. the scarcity of FF in Japan for 2024 camera sales...
Consider the fact that the median family income in Japan in 2024 was a bit over $23K, which is less than 1/4 of the median family income in USA ($99k)...they simply cannot afford to buy FF, so they buy the more affordable cameras (APS-C and 4/3 format)

That's only half the information. What is the cost of things there? When visiting other countries, I often see things priced at the same number as in the USA, but in the local currency. While they need to work more hours than I do to buy something, the exchange rate often makes the thing cheap for me. Most of my experience is food, but I have also bought clothing and shoes at a great discount compared to the USA. There will be some items, perhaps cameras, where the pricing will be very high in the local market.

 

[Lester Wareham]

I'm old-skool and like what the 5DIV gives me, so I'll keep with it.

I get more range with something like a Tamron SP 28-80 on the 5D than my previous
XTi/40D/50D could achieve, and the detail and other dynamics of the captured image
simply aren't of the same quality that the 5D offers.

I prefer to pair the vintage lenses with a modern capture device, so it makes no sense
for me to couple those lenses with a camera which is incapable of capturing
what those lenses were made for.

I also cannot afford to chase the latest-and-greatest of the market,
so it makes good fiscal sense for me to stay with the 5D.

In summary: I have an exceedingly-good capture device in the 5D Mk IV,
I have a few exceedingly-good vintage lenses, and they all serve me quite well
in capturing images which please myself and, in some cases, others.
I'd say I'm fairly well ahead of the game already.

I do understand chasing after the technology, but I had to just call it quits
after a time. I've probably plateaued.

I agree Craig; I am not a chaser of tech, I normally leave several generations between upgrades on bodies and generally don't change glass.

I was seduced with the R7, but very impressed with it for wildlife, a game chager.

I liked the mirrorless features so much I did an unplanned upgrad from my venerable 6D mkI to the R6Ii; again worth it but not such a game changer like the R7.

But as you say, no need to upgrade if your kit delivers what you need.

 

[Skygod44]

Just spotted this thread which includes plenty of comments about Japan, and "FF v not-FF", so I'll clear a few things up...
...or make everything muddier?

First of all, you can't use median incomes, via an exchange rate calculator as an international comparison of annual income.

Buying power via a "standardised shopping basket" is a bit better. But even then, the basket is culture & location biased, so it's still just a guideline.

More concretely, I bought Canon EOS cameras - FF & APS-C - and a lot of EF and EF-S lenses from 2006~2015, which was when I had a ton of trouble with my right wrist.
Thought I'd have to give up photography....
...but micro 4/3 system literally saved my sanity regarding the creative joy I get from photography.

The point being, my annual income in those years wasn't anything remarkable, and yet here in Japan, I was easily able to buy APS-C AND FF, and then sell it all and move into MFT without any stress to my bank account...
...because other living costs were low compared to Europe.
Maybe not the USA? I don't know. Maybe I'm just very good with money?
But the issue here, isn't cost.

Next point:
the article was written/edited by someone who appears to boast(?) about having "over a decade" of experience in digital photography.
Or something like that.

No offence to her, but most of us in FoP have decades-upon-decades of experience in digital & film photography, and know that FF is a niche market, so the headline is a tad sensationalist, albeit only about camera sensor sizes.

Additionally, as @paddler4 so accurately points out, "for what I do" is a key phrase. FF sensors, and the bodies around them, are great "for what I do".

A Medium Format photographer will say the same.
And now that I know the pros/cons of MFT, I will also say the same.

Of course, more consumers just want something better/more flexible/more "pro looking", than a smartphone.

Oh, and The Japan Professional Photographers' Association only has about 1,300 members nationwide, so if Canon, Sony, Nikon et al want to stay in business, "definitely good enough" is the way to go. And so-called "crop sensors" these days are, waaaaay "good enough" for >90% of photography (and videography).

So, assuming the article is accurate, then no, it's no surprise at all that FF is not very popular here.

Cheers for now,
Simon

 

[Markuswelder]

no... they need to focus on making the RF lenses cheaper!

Canon is not the only FF mirrorless brand out there. Plenty to choose from. When they start losing sales they might look why. By that time it may be a little late, as people aren't going to dump what they already have, just to buy the same.