Subscription software. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it's just stupid

[Capn Jack]

I have used downloaded maps for Google. The issue arises if you have been wandering in CityA, decide to jump into a car and wander without specific itinerary, then land in CityB and decide to linger and explore, and you never downloaded the map for CityB...now you need to find a wifi connection and password first, to download the map, repeat for TownC, etc

When was the last time you traveled? I never have had an issue getting free Wi-Fi, even in mainland China. My last visit there was last September. Last fall, I had free Wi-Fi in any McDonalds or Starbucks I visited in Europe. In Singapore, 2 weeks back, I found free Wi-Fi in Starbucks and AnyTime Fitness (I'm a member- I use gyms world wide!), and my hotel. I get free Wi-Fi in any IHG group hotel but that might be because I've been platinum level for years. Free Wi-fi at airports and train stations is common world-wide. In harbor towns, find where the ship crews, particularly cruise crews, hang out. They don't get paid much and practically depend on free Wi-Fi to communicate with home. As for getting the password- buy a coffee or beer and you are golden! It can be the least expensive drink on the menu! Take a break, get a drink, recharge, refresh, and plan your next adventure. I just did my expenses for that trip- $3.50 USD for coffee (Wi-Fi) at two visits to Starbucks! I don't know how many times I've used free Wi-Fi with a laptop computer inside and out of the USA to share data with someone who needed it. Hey Jack- Customer XXX said they would be free after all!! Do you have a presentation about YYY product? Sure- let's get some coffee or milk tea and we'll be good to go! I'll just download it over the VPN! Or I'll log-on to one of the instruments in Nebraska and show the dealer/sales person how to use a feature!

Back to maps, you can select the area to download too, including multiple cities- it just takes phone memory. See the links I posted earlier.

SIM card, yes, unfortunately my phone only holds one SIM so I have to swap out SIM get local data tower access to get map, then swap the SIM back in order to communications to your original phone number by places that you had booked stays, etc. I suppose one could take the measure of buying a phone with SIM locally, and using that for navigation or web surfing for the day, whle your usual phone stays connected for communication purposes.

I suggested a phone upgrade earlier in the thread- get one that supports multiple SIMs

Using Dual SIM with an eSIM

An eSIM is a digital SIM that allows you to use a cellular plan from your carrier without having to use a physical nano-SIM. Learn how to set up and use Dual SIM.1

support.apple.com

How to use or manage dual SIM cards on your phone | Samsung UK

Find out what Dual Sim Cards are and learn how to use them with your Samsung Galaxy phone with our guide and instructions.

www.samsung.com

To bring the conversation back on topic, you'll get a phone with a better camera, and the planned obsolescence of phones is essentially subscription software.

 

[Wilt]

Belgium, Netherlands, Romania, length 1 month in July 2023...paid for one month flat rate $100
Basque areas of Spain and France, length 10 days going in ten days, not sure how I'll deal, $10 per day for 10 days, or flat rate $100, or get a phone and SIM.
And in the past I have stayed in hotels that have had shakey internet connection, even a recognized name near Charles de Gaulle aiport in Paris, so even reliance on hotel wifi can be questionable. The issue is not how recently we travelled!
Small towns in foreigh countries do not have McDonald's or Starbucks...locally owned small shops offer free wifi?...have to ask, harder to do when language serves as a barrier...even the wifi log in in the local language! We only spent 3 of 30 days in a town aboad with McDonald or Starbucks last year.
I do not need a better phone camera, I don't used it to take pictures much, not ones that I want to keep...it gets used when a photo beats written notes of if nothing else has been brought along for photography.

 

[Capn Jack]

Belgium, Netherlands, Romania, length 1 month in July 2023...paid for one month flat rate $100
Basque areas of Spain and France, length 10 days going in ten days, not sure how I'll deal, $10 per day for 10 days, or flat rate $100, or get a phone and SIM.

You are paying for the convenience. You can spend $100 to update your Garmin maps, pay the same amount to get local data, or choose not to pay that money and use local Wi-Fi which is quite easily found. I'm not going to fault you for choosing the convenience of having constant internet access over price- that is your choice. But I will fault you for complaining about the price of convenience when there are so many free options.

It's similar to subscription software. You can pay for the convenience of having the latest version with bug fixes, using a lesser known program which isn't known as well within the community and may not have as much support, or using a version that predates the subscription model with its limitations. (Keeping the thread on track)

And in the past I have stayed in hotels that have had shakey internet connection, even a recognized name near Charles de Gaulle aiport in Paris, so even reliance on hotel wifi can be questionable. The issue is not how recently we travelled!

I have too, a long time ago. I haven't had problems in the past decade (literally!). You've been making objections that haven't been an issue for at least that amount of time, and that is why I asked about when you last traveled. I admit that I have status with IHG and Bonvoy-Marriott, so it is entirely possible that I get better Wi-Fi on those properties. With IHG, I don't even need to stay at particular hotel to get Wi-Fi on that property. But even when I stay at a local hotel, I haven't had an issue in at least a decade! My IHG report indicated I stayed in their hotels 60 days last year! Considering stays in other hotels, that is about 90 days of travel last year, the majority of those trips were overseas, I should know something about how to find free Wi-Fi while traveling!

Small towns in foreigh countries do not have McDonald's or Starbucks...locally owned small shops offer free wifi?...have to ask, harder to do when language serves as a barrier...even the wifi log in in the local language! We only spent 3 of 30 days in a town aboad with McDonald or Starbucks last year.

You would be amazed where Starbucks and McD's are located! I certainly am! Most locally owned places have Wi-Fi. If you turn on your Wi-Fi settings, you can see networks that are fairly close to you and most of them match the business name. There are web sites and apps that show where there is free Wi-Fi. I don't use them because I haven't had a problem finding free Wi-Fi. As for the log-in, just open the log-in screen, and let the waiter/barista/bartender enter the password. Easy-peasy! They won't run away with your phone! With the log-in screen visible, they understand what you want even if you don't speak the language.

As for the range of Wi-Fi? I once had to reset the connection from my ADSB receiver to my iPad climbing out of McCook, NE. At ~1000 feet AGL, I was surprised at how many farms had Wi-Fi, never mind that I I could receive them from far distances! Miles away!!! Apple uses Wi-Fi as part of their geo-location. This allows their maps to be useful in concrete jungles (Boston, NYC, Chi-town) where buildings block GPS satellites at times. my iPad doesn't have cell data, hence no GPS- but the down-loaded maps work well and show my position because Apple stores the location of Wi-Fi transmitters. Useful, but a little creepy!

The Polish Peptide Society holds their meetings in some rather out-of-the-way places (such as Jastrzebia Gora, Radziejowice) and I have never had an issue with finding Wi-Fi. As most of my travel is for work, I rarely stay at the popular tourist destinations- I stay close to work.

I do not need a better phone camera, I don't used it to take pictures much, not ones that I want to keep...it gets used when a photo beats written notes of if nothing else has been brought along for photography.

You should have some sort of camera. You go to interesting places and never post images. This is a photography forum, after all. The camera is only part of the advantages of a new phone, and new cell phone cameras are very capable. You can get enough memory to store maps, and have the dual SIM capability. And a new phone can capture RAW images as you indicated that your phone can't do as you indicated below in another thread...

With regard to your suggestions...
re #1: Capture RAW... not on a Motorola Android smartphone

 

[Wilt]

You are paying for the convenience. You can spend $100 to update your Garmin maps, pay the same amount to get local data, or choose not to pay that money and use local Wi-Fi which is quite easily found. I'm not going to fault you for choosing the convenience of having constant internet access over price- that is your choice. But I will fault you for complaining about the price of convenience when there are so many free options.

Waitasec there, guy! I was not at all complaining bout GPS or phone costs...quote the complaining statement if you find it.
You asked a series of questions, and I responded to your questions about how I deal with the issue of phone access abroad, and why I like to use Garmin GPS. You then have somethiing to say about me handing things wrongly, to which I merely state how I handle things. And your next post again is critical about how I deal. I reply with statements of fact, not 'complaints'.
You are being your critical self about my posts, yet again it appears. I was hoping to leave you with POTN, but I was disappointed. I have been deliberately not trying to raise your antagonism for several months on FOP, but your true attitude toward me is showiing itself. Why do you follow me?...only to be critical?! Forgive me Father, I must have sinned?

You should have some sort of camera. You go to interesting places and never post images.

You're now compaining that I don't post photos?! Particiapation in a photography forum also can amount to EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION...not all of us are complled to show off our photos on a constant basis. And I HAVE posted images in messages.

 

[Capn Jack]

Wilt- you've been posting old or contradictory information. Every obstacle you came up with is really a non-issue. Free Wi-Fi is easily available in Europe and Asia and is easily found. It can be used for communication (WeChat, Skype, WhatApp, etc) so you mostly don't need a plan. For the few times a hotel may need to call you, going without a plan might be less expensive! Skype can call regular phones too, with a very reasonable cost. Outdated information was posted by you starting here, too: https://focus-on-photography-forum.net/threads/pro-photography-doesnt-have-a-future.702/post-7891

Let's look at these statements:

I have a Garmin, and have been a user for decades now. From my own direct experience, nether the Garmin nor Google maps routes you to speed up your time to destination around showdowns it detects; you can try to get alternate route, but you need to initiate the search.

The issue may simply be that my Garmin is more than a few years old...I keep using it because it gives me North America and Europe maps, with map update and traffic, and the newer Garmin sold do not contain both NA and Europe unless you buy the other maps on a chip, rather than it all being self contained and inclusive of map updates.

Every Garmin GPS that has traffic does a re-route from the time Garmin added that feature. And Google maps does do a re-route. So do Apple maps on iThings. The quoted posts list old or incorrect information.

Waitasec there, guy! I was not at all complaining bout GPS or phone costs...quote the complaining statement if you find it.

The difficulty of using phone maps is when in a country for which you normally do not have monthly service...the price of daily access to the local phone network comes with a limited amount of data; the alternative is monthly access but if you are in a country for less than a week, the monthly charges for local access sem excessive

That sure seems like a complaint.

You're now compaining that I don't post photos?! Particiapation in a photography forum also can amount to EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION...not all of us are complled to show off our photos on a constant basis. And I HAVE posted images in messages.

You don't post photos. You explanations would have more value if you combined your commentary with your photos. In the explanations of flash photography, other people provide much better explanations because their images support, complement, and demonstrate their text.

I reply with statements of fact, not 'complaints'.

I'll just refer to the attachment. Half-truths are lies. "Half-truth" is like being "half-pregnant" Truth and lies are binary opposites. Lies aren't facts.

 

[Wilt]

You don't post photos. You explanations would have more value if you combined your commentary with your photos. In the explanations of flash photography, other people provide much better explanations because their images support, complement, and demonstrate their text.

No photos...

1. https://focus-on-photography-forum.net/threads/olympus-pen-cameras.955/post-60316
2. https://focus-on-photography-forum.net/threads/will-a-28-softbox-be-large-enough.2164/post-43085
3. https://focus-on-photography-forum.net/threads/lets-see-your-fences.314/post-25224
4. https://focus-on-photography-forum.net/threads/post-your-dam-pictures.962/post-47492

...just from the first page listing threads with my posts in them (20 threads listed).

It is possible to post counterpoint without criticizing what someone else has written. but you critcize. Debate even is possible without criticism of what someone else has stated, without personalization.
You are still 'finding fault' with my posts, evidenced by Post 105. Since you cannot seem to refrain from that behavior of repeatedly finding fault in my posts, you are now the one and only person ever to appear in my Ignore list. I ordinarily take great pains to not criticize what others write, but I am returning your favor of what you are doing repeatedly to me.

 

[Redlegrangerone]

Now can we get back to our regularly scheduled program?

 

[Wilt]

Now can we get back to our regularly scheduled program?

Yes, please!
Subscriptions are for some, not for others...leased vehicles vs. purchased vehicles.
And SOME subscriptions are for some, yet not for others (newspapers), while other subscriptions are more widely acceptable to all (paying for streaming music services)
And more and more car manufacturers are trying to find continuing revenue streams from service subscriptions (SOS vehicle road help) vs. feature subscriptions (heated seated)
There are Pro's and Con's to each approach, and what works for one does not work for someone else. "Different strokes for different folks"

 

[Wilt]

I have used downloaded maps for Google. The issue arises if you have been wandering in CityA, decide to jump into a car and wander without specific itinerary, then land in CityB and decide to linger and explore, and you never downloaded the map for CityB...now you need to find a wifi connection and password first, to download the map, repeat for TownC, etc.

SIM card, yes, unfortunately my phone only holds one SIM so I have to swap out SIM get local data tower access to get map, then swap the SIM back in order to communications to your original phone number by places that you had booked stays, etc. I suppose one could take the measure of buying a phone with SIM locally, and using that for navigation or web surfing for the day, whle your usual phone stays connected for communication purposes.

I relied upon smartphone GPS to navigate while my wife and I visited the Basque area of Spain & France a month ago. I discovered one issue in reliance upon phone GPS in a foreign country...if you do not have internet connection at the time that you attempt to navigate to some destination, it cannot compute a route! This, in spite of the fact that I had previously set up to have cellphone connectivity in both Spain and France during our stay...in a cellphone hole more than once during our holiday.

 

[Capn Jack]

I relied upon smartphone GPS to navigate while my wife and I visited the Basque area of Spain & France a month ago. I discovered one issue in reliance upon phone GPS in a foreign country...if you do not have internet connection at the time that you attempt to navigate to some destination, it cannot compute a route! This, in spite of the fact that I had previously set up to have cellphone connectivity in both Spain and France during our stay...in a cellphone hole more than once during our holiday.

Did you download the maps ahead of time? Death Valley and some other places in the USA southwest have no cell signal either but my maps worked. I was able to download the maps for Northern Arizona for one segment.

 

[Anton Largiader]

Here in Virginia, practically every public school system has county-wide WiFi. By county-wide I mean that all schools in the county have the same WiFi. I go to a lot of schools and usually find that I'm already logged in, because I've logged in to one of their schools in the past. There's no password because there's no way they could ever manage that with one or two thousand high schoolers coming and going. I haven't been overseas in years, but based on my recent experience the first thing I would try is going near a school.

 

[West Coast Birder]

Just about every coffee shop worth its beans has wifi, at least in the US. I imagine it to be similar elsewhere. Somebody figured out that if they could keep customers lingering in their shop browsing, they may order a second coffee and if they can be enticed to stay a bit longer, maybe some snacks as well!

 

[Levina de Ruijter]

Public wifi is also risky.

Here’s a pdf from Europol with info on what could happen and how to make using a public network safer.

 

[Wilt]

As a traveler in a foreign country, if one is trying to get from Point A in town Z to Point B also within town Z, one does not always have the desire (or time) to find the closest cafe or school in town Z which one is simply passing thru and walking thru the town Z central business zone
...if one does not have cellular data internet connection at Point A, how does one first find a cafe or school much less get a signal to B) compute how to navigate to it?! if one cannot get navigation to Point B (the desired destination)?! If one had internet signal to compute the route to the school or cafe, one would not NEED to get to a school or cafe first, because one already has a signal to compute the route to Point B!
In the cases that we recently ran into (on more than one occasion during our trip within the Basque area), it was only necessary to first wander a bit within the business zone to where we had cellular signal once again, and then compute the route to Point B. Not a significant issue in this case, but merely an illustration of the pitfalls of reliance upon smartphone navigation exclusively...and why satellite-based GPS navigation tools (not dependent upon cellular towers alone) can be beneficial to use.

 

[Anton Largiader]

No argument on the sat-based concept. For years we've been able to download Google maps to local storage, and I've used that in Switzerland with no cell connection. My normal app for that, though, is GAIA GPS. And now Apple maps can be stored locally as well, right?

I rarely go to coffee shops but my impression is that you'd been a readily-available passkey for them. The school systems here have no passkey for guests. Also, our town has WiFi all along our pedestrian mall.

 

[Capn Jack]

As a traveler in a foreign country, if one is trying to get from Point A in town Z to Point B also within town Z, one does not always have the desire (or time) to find the closest cafe or school in town Z which one is simply passing thru and walking thru the town Z central business zone
...if one does not have cellular data internet connection at Point A, how does one first find a cafe or school much less get a signal to B) compute how to navigate to it?! if one cannot get navigation to Point B (the desired destination)?! If one had internet signal to compute the route to the school or cafe, one would not NEED to get to a school or cafe first, because one already has a signal to compute the route to Point B!
In the case that we recently ran into, it was only necessary to first wander a bit within the business zone to where we had cellular signal once again, and then compute the route to Point B. Not a significant issue in this case, but merely an illustration of the pitfalls of reliance upon smartphone navigation exclusively...and why satellite-based GPS navigation tools (not dependent upon cellular towers alone) can be beneficial to use.

You just do a little planning. Every hotel I've stayed at in the world the past few years has reasonable Wi-Fi. Just download the maps you need before you set go anywhere. It really doesn't take much time. As mentioned earlier, most cafes & restaurants have Wi-Fi. I don't work in the tourist places, but I've never had an issue getting Wi-Fi while abroad at hotels, restaurants, or cafes. Just stop at one, buy something, and use their Wi-Fi. Ask someone at the establishment for the password if you can't read the language to login.

A few weeks ago, I was in the USA Southwest where cell phone data is surprisingly sparse. I just downloaded the northern half of Arizona and so I had a supplement and back-up to my Garmin, as they have different information because they draw data from different databases. I usually use multiple data sources if possible because I've found one or another database had incorrect information.

Really, it almost reads like you do no planning. You do check the gas in your car before leaving? This is just an extension of such planning.

...and why satellite-based GPS navigation tools (not dependent upon cellular towers alone) can be beneficial to use.

You forget that your phone does use the satellite based navigation and isn't dependent only on the towers. Although GPS is an old term that everyone understands, the correct term is GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite System)- GPS is a subset of GNSS since modern phones use GPS (USA), GLONASS (Russia), Galileo (European Union), BeiDou (China), and and others (India, Japan). Your phone also uses the cell phone towers and even Wi-Fi networks to determine position in urban jungles where tall buildings block or reflect the GNSS signals. Cellular data is only needed to get map data which can be downloaded as well. Cellular data also gets traffic data which is nice to have. When I fly (airlines or light planes), my phone and tablet only use GNSS with my electronic charts.

 

[West Coast Birder]

With the ability to do map downloads, the concern about being out in the boonies or outside connectivity range has pretty much vanished. Of course, you don't have real time data on traffic, etc. which might be annoying in cities but not the end of the world as a tourist.

 

[Wilt]

No argument on the sat-based concept. For years we've been able to download Google maps to local storage, and I've used that in Switzerland with no cell connection. My normal app for that, though, is GAIA GPS. And now Apple maps can be stored locally as well, right?

I rarely go to coffee shops but my impression is that you'd been a readily-available passkey for them. The school systems here have no passkey for guests. Also, our town has WiFi all along our pedestrian mall.

With the ability to do map downloads, the concern about being out in the boonies or outside connectivity range has pretty much vanished. Of course, you don't have real time data on traffic, etc. which might be annoying in cities but not the end of the world as a tourist.

I had already downloaded map of the town we were in...and with the downloaded map one could find businesses, etc. with its database. But one COULD NOT compute a route to navigate, with estimated travel distance and time, to a desired destination within that town without active internet connection!

 

[Anton Largiader]

Aha. Yes, that's typical. Routing, traffic monitoring, etc are server-side in almost all cases.

 

[Levina de Ruijter]

And now Apple maps can be stored locally as well, right?

Yes. You can download maps for offline use.