A place for beginners/intermediate photographers?

[Wilt]

Levina,
I generally note a shortage of discussion about general photographic topics with technical content. While there is a General discussion, it is 'conversational non-discussion', general in nature. Unlike POTN content topics, FOP seems to lack a section that would spark beginners/intermediates to seek information/knowledge from those with insight.
While others might have a propensity to show their photos, a lot of us have hesistation to post and show off for a variety of reasons, like a general distrust that others might pirate a photo and use it (with subtle modifications) as their own.

 

[Levina de Ruijter]

Levina,
I generally note a shortage of discussion about general photographic topics with technical content. While there is a General discussion, it is 'conversational non-discussion', general in nature. Unlike POTN content topics, FOP seems to lack a section that would spark beginners/intermediates to seek information/knowledge from those with insight.

Hey, Wilt,

As far as I know the "POTN content topics" you are referring to were just threads in forums, right? I mean, I don't think there were specific sections of POTN dedicated to beginning and intermediate photographers. We have tailored FoP after POTN (although we did merge a few forums for lack of participation on POTN already). But you are most welcome to start threads that address beginners and intermediates alike.

Or are you maybe thinking of some stickies on POTN? There were a few guides I think. One of them was "Ben's Newbie Guide to Digital SLR photography." It's in Resources now, but lacks the sample images. I retrieved those images on the Wayback machine and had planned to put them in and then forgot. I'll do that shortly.

EDIT: I have put in the images in Ben's Newbie Guide. The Resource is here.

While others might have a propensity to show their photos, a lot of us have hesistation to post and show off for a variety of reasons, like a general distrust that others might pirate a photo and use it (with subtle modifications) as their own.

There is always that risk. As soon as you put a photograph on the internet, no matter where you post it, it can be stolen. The only sure way to prevent that is to not post a single photograph on the internet at all, not anywhere.

Some of my photographs are used on sites, mostly on nature/bird sites. Once a none-bird snapshot was used in a Ukrainian newspaper in a featured article. All pics were credited to me though, so that was decent enough. But I don't mind at all. As long as folks aren't claiming a pic is theirs or try to make money off of it.

In fact, a while ago I changed the copyright status of most of my images. From "all rights reserved" I now use the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial_NoDerivatives 4.0 International.



Having said that, I fully understand that other people don't like this and want to protect their work. But really, you can't. Unless you put a huge copyright sign, right in the middle of the image. But I believe even those can be removed now.

 

[Wilt]

Hey, Wilt,

As far as I know the "POTN content topics" you are referring to were just threads in forums, right? I mean, I don't think there were specific sections of POTN dedicated to beginning and intermediate photographers. We have tailored FoP after POTN (although we did merge a few forums for lack of participation on POTN already). But you are most welcome to start threads that address beginners and intermediates alike.

Or are you maybe thinking of some stickies on POTN? There were a few guides I think. One of them was "Ben's Newbie Guide to Digital SLR photography." It's in Resources now, but lacks the sample images. I retrieved those images on the Wayback machine and had planned to put them in and then forgot. I'll do that shortly.

EDIT: I have put in the images in Ben's Newbie Guide. The Resource is here.


There is always that risk. As soon as you put a photograph on the internet, no matter where you post it, it can be stolen. The only sure way to prevent that is to not post a single photograph on the internet at all, not anywhere.

Some of my photographs are used on sites, mostly on nature/bird sites. Once a none-bird snapshot was used in a Ukrainian newspaper in a featured article. All pics were credited to me though, so that was decent enough. But I don't mind at all. As long as folks aren't claiming a pic is theirs or try to make money off of it.

In fact, a while ago I changed the copyright status of most of my images. From "all rights reserved" I now use the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial_NoDerivatives 4.0 International.

View attachment 105116

Having said that, I fully understand that other people don't like this and want to protect their work. But really, you can't. Unless you put a huge copyright sign, right in the middle of the image. But I believe even those can be removed now.

The point that I was trying to get across is that

• there seems not to be a Forum for discussion about the technical aspects of photography (not are pertaining to any specific brand of equipment)...there does not seem to ba a forum in FOP that would serve as a home for any such discussions.
• FOP seems to have a strong propensity to show photographs, and no section for discussion of the technical aspects of photography, whether digital or film-based.

The major groups of forum topics seem to be

1. General photography talk
2. Show photos (with discussion about them)
3. Gear
4. Marketing & Presenting
5. Marketplace

 

[Levina de Ruijter]

The point that I was trying to get across is that

• there seems not to be a Forum for discussion about the technical aspects of photography (not are pertaining to any specific brand of equipment)...there does not seem to ba a forum in FOP that would serve as a home for any such discussions.

We tailored FoP after POTN and as far as I know POTN didn't have a forum that served "as a home" for such discussions either. Technical issues were discussed in threads in a variety of forums, be it in the General Photography Talk forum, in the Post Processing forum, the Computer forum, the Flash and Studio Lightning forum, you name it. There's nothing to stop people from starting discussions in those same forums here on FoP too.

• FOP seems to have a strong propensity to show photographs, and no section for discussion of the technical aspects of photography, whether digital or film-base

That is not something that the staff initiates. It's what the members do. People create the threads they need and to a certain extent the forum they need. Yes, discussion is down, there is more posting of pics now. It's happening everywhere, not just on FoP. It also happened on POTN. You may remember that on POTN we used to have a Talk Forum to every photo sharing forum, so there was a Birds forum and a Birds Talk forum. A People forum and a People Talk forum, etc. A number of years ago Pekka merged the Talk forums with the Photo sharing forums because of lack of discussion in the Talk forums. And that development is ongoing: less discussion, more posting pics. That's just the way it is. There's not much we can do about that.

• The major groups of forum topics seem to be
  
  1. General photography talk
  2. Show photos (with discussion about them)
  3. Gear
  4. Marketing & Presenting
  5. Marketplace

There's also the category General Gear Talk/Accessories with forums like: Flash and Studio Lightning, Data Storage, Memory Cards and Backup, Computers, and more.
And the category Post Processing, Marketing and Presenting Photos with forums like: RAW, Post Processing and Printing and Video and Sound editing, On the old forum Flash and Studio Lightning as well as RAW, Post Processing and Printing had a lot of technical content.

So there's plenty of places on FoP to talk about the technical aspects of photography, just like on POTN and there's nothing stopping you from starting a discussion thread.

 

[Capn Jack]

The point that I was trying to get across is that

• there seems not to be a Forum for discussion about the technical aspects of photography (not are pertaining to any specific brand of equipment)...there does not seem to ba a forum in FOP that would serve as a home for any such discussions.
• FOP seems to have a strong propensity to show photographs, and no section for discussion of the technical aspects of photography, whether digital or film-based.

The major groups of forum topics seem to be

1. General photography talk
2. Show photos (with discussion about them)
3. Gear
4. Marketing & Presenting
5. Marketplace

Technical aspects would be under "general photography talk".
Here's one- a hint for warm and humid places: https://focus-on-photography-forum.net/threads/going-from-cold-places-to-warm-and-humid-hints.2708/
People post articles there: https://focus-on-photography-forum.net/threads/interesting-article.3788/
Here's another- I'll post something that may be of interest: https://focus-on-photography-forum.net/threads/the-science-of-photography.3403/

My opinion is there isn't enough traffic to support a separate forum for technical talk. "General Photography Talk" supports these discussions quite well at this time.

 

[OhLook]

The point that I was trying to get across is that

• there seems not to be a Forum for discussion about the technical aspects of photography (not [as] pertaining to any specific brand of equipment)...there does not seem to ba a forum in FOP that would serve as a home for any such discussions.
• FOP seems to have a strong propensity to show photographs, and no section for discussion of the technical aspects of photography, whether digital or film-based.

The Attic has several threads that amount to tutorials like some of POTN's stickies. These turn into discussions if members add to them. It isn't clear, though, just how threads get into The Attic. I suppose the original POTN thread starter's permission would be needed, and many of those stickies were begun years ago by people long gone from POTN when it closed. Another place that supports discussions is the recent Articles section.

Discussion happens in Critique Corner, but posts there about technical aspects aren't gathered into one place. Each comment pertains to a particular photo.

People could indeed talk more than they do. Introducing an image with words can add interest to a post, compared with just showing the image. This may not address your concern, however, as it doesn't touch the idea of a separate section.

 

[Wilt]

The Attic has several threads that amount to tutorials like some of POTN's stickies. These turn into discussions if members add to them. It isn't clear, though, just how threads get into The Attic. I suppose the original POTN thread starter's permission would be needed, and many of those stickies were begun years ago by people long gone from POTN when it closed. Another place that supports discussions is the recent Articles section.

Discussion happens in Critique Corner, but posts there about technical aspects aren't gathered into one place. Each comment pertains to a particular photo.

People could indeed talk more than they do. Introducing an image with words can add interest to a post, compared with just showing the image. And although my sig invites comments on my images, I hardly ever get comments. This may not address your concern, however, as it doesn't touch the idea of a separate section.

Thanks for the comments. I wonder...is the lack of posts with technical questions/explanations due to folks not finding a suitable category for such discussion so they go elsewhere in the web,
or is the lack of posts with technical questions/explanations due to general lack of interest because there are other means to learn other than Forum on photography?!

 

[OhLook]

Thanks for the comments. I wonder...is the lack of posts with technical questions/explanations due to folks not finding a suitable category for such discussion so they go elsewhere in the web,
or is the lack of posts with technical questions/explanations due to general lack of interest because there are other means to learn other than Forum on photography?!

I don't know, probably some of both. There were always other sources for learning photography, but maybe not many interactive ones. Could be YouTube has more such videos than, say, five years ago.

Where on POTN did you post the kind of material you're talking about? I remember that you had charts ready when certain questions came up. I don't remember whether those discussions were in Photo Sharing or somewhere else.

 

[Levina de Ruijter]

Thanks for the comments. I wonder...is the lack of posts with technical questions/explanations due to folks not finding a suitable category for such discussion so they go elsewhere in the web,
or is the lack of posts with technical questions/explanations due to general lack of interest because there are other means to learn other than Forum on photography?!

Wilt, you talk as if we have left out something that other forums do have. This is simply not the case. We have built FoP like POTN that also didn't have such a dedicated area for general tech stuff discussions. Here is POTN's forum list. I saved it as a pdf from the Wayback Machine. Could you please point out the special category for discussing technical content on POTN?

 

[Capn Jack]

Thanks for the comments. I wonder...is the lack of posts with technical questions/explanations due to folks not finding a suitable category for such discussion so they go elsewhere in the web,
or is the lack of posts with technical questions/explanations due to general lack of interest because there are other means to learn other than Forum on photography?!

I think it is simply a lack of interest. There are some discussions of how to use flash- real experts such as @ImageMaker have current knowledge and are happy to share what they know. The discussions are sometimes hiding in threads such as this one: https://focus-on-photography-forum.net/threads/a-thread-for-brunettes-whos-in.130/post-117343

If I need help with something I'll ask and I usually get good answers in Photography Talk.

 

[Levina de Ruijter]

@Wilt

Wilt, we changed the description of the General Photography Talk forum to make clear it's also a good place for technical discussions.

 

[Wilt]

@Wilt

Wilt, we changed the description of the General Photography Talk forum to make clear it's also a good place for technical discussions.

Thx, Levina. No, I do not think FOP is 'missing' what is in other forums. But it seems that more technical discussions take place there than here. I just thought, in looking around, that an identified place for questions/answers about the technical aspects of photography might be an obvious 'home' for beginners or even experienced folks seeking additional knowledge, and attract more participants to FOP than merely discussions about certain brands of gear, or showing photos that fit into the identified genre that have forums on FOP. Make FOP an identified place for knowledge exchange.
As OhLook pointed out, places like YouTube might well provide initial information but folks viewing those presentations just might need more interactive sources of information once YouTube videos are viewed.

 

[Levina de Ruijter]

Thx, Levina. No, I do not think FOP is 'missing' what is in other forums. But it seems that more technical discussions take place there than here. I just thought, in looking around, that an identified place for questions/answers about the technical aspects of photography might be an obvious 'home' for beginners or even experienced folks seeking additional knowledge, and attract more participants to FOP than merely discussions about certain brands of gear, or showing photos that fit into the identified genre that have forums on FOP. Make FOP an identified place for knowledge exchange.
As OhLook pointed out, places like YouTube might well provide initial information but folks viewing those presentations just might need more interactive sources of information once YouTube videos are viewed.

Wilt, I don't know which discussions take place in other forums; my only concern is this forum. What I do know is that although we have 22 years of POTN behind us, we are a young, small forum without POTN's treasure trove of those 22 years, as we couldn't take it with us. Other forums are much older and as such have more history behind them. We lack that at this point in time.

But, members willing, we will grow and as we do this community will fill the forum with both images and information. However, much is beyond our control. If people here are not terribly interested in talking tech stuff then we can't make them. Creating a dedicated place for it won't suddenly, magically make people want to talk more. That's just not how it works. We can't enforce that. I posted POTN's forum list above and as you can see, there was no dedicated place there either for "questions/answers about the technical aspects of photography". And yet, for years those discussions took place, not in a dedicated place but all over the place, in all the appropriate forums that I listed in earlier posts. The fact is that talk is down, posting pics is up. POTN is the best example of how that process developed from about 2014 and on, and it's not something you can just turn around.

We have some guides in Resources. We could move the old POTN threads that are in the Attic to Resources too, where they are maybe less buried. We introduced Articles but struggle a bit to find good content for it. At the moment several members are writing for it. You could do the same: write an article on something that could be helpful for a beginning photographer. Nothing to stop you from doing that. And as articles can be commented to, your writings could result in the kind of discussions you now seem to miss.

 

[OhLook]

We have some guides in Resources. We could move the old POTN threads that are in the Attic to Resources too, where they are maybe less buried.

I think they're more prominent in The Attic than they'd be in Resources because The Attic is on the main forums list. Being in the row up top makes Resources look like more of an annex, something you might want to visit for a special reason, like Members.

 

[Levina de Ruijter]

I think they're more prominent in The Attic than they'd be in Resources because The Attic is on the main forums list. Being in the row up top makes Resources look like more of an annex, something you might want to visit for a special reason, like Members.

Not sure I agree with you on this, OhLook. That "row up top" is the forum's main menu.

 

[OhLook]

Not sure I agree with you on this, OhLook. That "row up top" is the forum's main menu.

I see your point. To me, the heart and soul of Focus is the Forums page. That's what I bookmarked. Of course, individual users will have diverse ideas of what's most important, what draws them here. Newcomers would likely start at the landing page and look around from there. How to accommodate the different mental structures that people create, I don't know.

 

[Levina de Ruijter]

To me, the heart and soul of Focus is the Forums page.

To me it's the What's New page. And the New Media section.
But I have the Homepage bookmarked so that's my first stop.

Different strokes for different folks, I believe the saying goes?

 

[paddler4]

I also have noticed what I think Wilt is describing.

I follow only a few photo sites. One of them, Cambridge in Colour, has considerably more of what I think Wilt is looking for. So, I compared the two side by side.

Some of the technical/teaching stuff on CiC is in a forum labeled "Image post-processing and printing". This site has a similar forum: "RAW, Post Processing and Printing."

The rest of the technical/critique/teaching material on CiC is in forums dedicated to types of photographs, which this site of course has as well. For example, you will find some in their nature and architecture forum: https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/forums/forum8.htm.

What this suggests to me is that the key is what Levina posted: what participants on this site want, not a problem with the organization of the site.

My suggestion for encouraging this, for folks who want more, this is to add "comments and critiques welcome" at the bottom of your posts. People used to do that often enough on CiC that it was sometimes abbreviated "C&C welcome" or the like. You can also add requests for specific comments. I recently posted on CiC an initial edit of a landscape taken under harsh lighting, with an explanation and two requests: tell me if you think it's beyond salvaging, and tell me if you have specific suggestions. I received replies of both sorts.

 

[Levina de Ruijter]

I also have noticed what I think Wilt is describing.

I follow only a few photo sites. One of them, Cambridge in Colour, has considerably more of what I think Wilt is looking for. So, I compared the two side by side.

Some of the technical/teaching stuff on CiC is in a forum labeled "Image post-processing and printing". This site has a similar forum: "RAW, Post Processing and Printing."

The rest of the technical/critique/teaching material on CiC is in forums dedicated to types of photographs, which this site of course has as well. For example, you will find some in their nature and architecture forum: https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/forums/forum8.htm.

What this suggests to me is that the key is what Levina posted: what participants on this site want, not a problem with the organization of the site.

My suggestion for encouraging this, for folks who want more, this is to add "comments and critiques welcome" at the bottom of your posts. People used to do that often enough on CiC that it was sometimes abbreviated "C&C welcome" or the like. You can also add requests for specific comments. I recently posted on CiC an initial edit of a landscape taken under harsh lighting, with an explanation and two requests: tell me if you think it's beyond salvaging, and tell me if you have specific suggestions. I received replies of both sorts.

Cambridge in Colour is a very different type of forum from FoP though. It has two dedicated tech forums and one general photography talk forum so that whole forum is basically centred around those three forums. But it has been around for almost 20 years now so there's history there and traditions. POTN had history and traditions too, in equal amount, but although we came from POTN, those things didn't migrate with us. We have to (re)build from scratch, make new history, new traditions. Time will tell if we can.

Your suggestion to put "C&C welcome" in one's sig is a good suggestion.

 

[Levina de Ruijter]

@Wilt
Here's a tech question you might like to answer, Wilt: https://focus-on-photography-forum....ootball-under-lights-for-the-first-time.4025/